We discuss in this interview:

• Esther’s recovery from Crohn’s Disease and Rheumatoid Arthritis using the Paddison Program for Rheumatoid Arthritis
• Her first RA diagnosis at 21 and mixed results with various drug combinations in the first ten years
• Consistent improvements with Cimzia
• How she came close to having her colon removed and found the Paddison Program for Rheumatoid Arthritis which finally put her on the right track
• How to do the Paddison Program ‘backwards’ and get tremendous results
• How, after 29 years of RA, she has been able to space out her medications
• After 4 1/2 years, no Crohn’s Disease symptoms with no need for surgery

Clint – Welcome to the Rheumatoid Solutions podcast. My name’s Clint Paddison. Today’s guest, we have Esther all the way from the UK, I’m on the other side of the world here in Australia. Today we are going to be talking about her recovery from Crohn’s disease and also reversing the symptoms of rheumatoid arthritis and increasing the spacing between her doses of Cimzia. That’s gotten to the point now where she’s spread those doses out to 11 weeks apart. Esther has had rheumatoid arthritis for 32 years, so she knows all about this disease. And to be able to get the results that she has attained in the past three years is absolutely remarkable. It’s going to be a wonderful chat and I only know what I’ve just told you, so I’m going to learn all about this in this interview with Esther. She’s up at 6 -30 a.m. AM in the morning. Welcome, Esther.

Esther – Nice to see you, Clint.

Clint – Yes. Now I’ve said just about all I know about you, and I’m going to learn a whole bunch in this conversation. I’ve learned just what you’ve shared on email, and it just sounds like quite remarkable, 32 years of rheumatoid, 29 years prior to when you started our program, the Paddison Program. Goodness, I mean, you diagnosed what in your early 20s? Tell us what that was like when you were first diagnosed at such a young age?

Esther – Yeah, it was a complete shock, I was 21, I started with very painful feet and had no explanation for the pain, that quickly travel to my hands. So I was now really struggling to walk, I was struggling to turn taps on, open bottles, open cans, or anything, it was devastating. I play the piano and I was teaching the piano, so it impacted that greatly. I’m sure I don’t need to spell out the frustrations and the pain because you’re familiar with that. But everything became a challenge, and I think because of having it at such a young age, nobody understood, and I very quickly came to realize that it was something I had to keep hidden, fairly hidden. I didn’t talk about it, I tried to pretend it wasn’t happening, and I tried my best to do everything normally and to look as normal as possible whilst I was in this extreme pain and I didn’t really want to talk to anybody about it because arthritis was something that older people get. I remember quite a long time into having RA, I was talking to an occupational therapist and she said to me, how did you come to terms with your diagnosis? And I looked across the table at her and I thought to myself I could feel tears filling up in my eyes and I thought, do you know what I never have? I have never come to terms with it, and I sometimes wonder whether I have even now, you know what I mean?

Clint – Right?

Esther – It’s a strange feeling, isn’t it?

Clint – Yeah, that’s interesting. You’re at twice the amount of time that I’ve had the condition, and so it’s interesting for you to say that you’ve never really come to terms with it because I guess likewise, it’s not something that you really ever kind of, you ever sort of give up thinking that it’ll be at one point like not a part of your life. It’s weird, it’s a strange thing. Especially at 21, I was diagnosed at 31, so at 21, I mean, it’s even more kind of inconvenient. You haven’t had enough life to really get sort of have more have enough sort of non-RA life for you to sort of handle getting it? So you’re very chirpy, though you come across as positive and friendly and light and bubbly. Whilst you may not have come to terms with it intellectually, it seems that you haven’t let it dramatically affect your personality. Would that be fair?

Esther – Yeah, I think by nature, I’m positive, I’m a very happy, person, very happy. It’s only when I talk about it like today that I even sort of acknowledging that I’ve got some crippling disease that’s impacted every aspect of my life. And in fact, I always used to say that I hated going to my hospital appointment because I’d be completely fine before I went, and on the way home, I would have a little bit of a sob because again, I had to be reminded that I’ve got something wrong with me. And it was only those hospital appointments that really reminded me. I had to talk about it with somebody, it’s a strange old thing, isn’t it? And then I could just put it to one side and get on as best I could with life.

Clint – Is that because your medications were doing a lot of work? Tell me where you hurt the most, how much joint damage was going on, what your inflammatory markers were like and what drugs you went on at that age.

Esther – My memories are sketchy I have to be honest, and I think I’ve been on and off so many different medications. None of those medications were particularly very good at controlling the disease, so I’ve got very very damaged hands. I show you my hands, you can see my hands terribly, terribly damaged and my feet. I’ve had major surgery on both of my feet and I’ve had major surgery on one hand. Well, 2 lots of surgery on my one hand. So it hasn’t been well controlled really throughout, And largely I blame myself for this because the minute I was put on any medication, I wanted to get off it because I didn’t like being on medication. And I think that young age and I didn’t know much about RA, there wasn’t the information out there to even find and seek out alternatives or whatever. I mistakenly thought, whatever medications I was on. I recall things like sulfasalazine, plaquenil, methotrexate I was definitely on for quite a while on and off, on and off because I was always suffering from a low white cell count. Whilst I was on that, I was being contacted by the hospital to stop taking it and then wait for the white cell to go back up and then go back on it, I was on-off, on-off, and I had some terrible side effects from methotrexate as well. At one stage had a mouth full of really horrific ulcers. And so, so that was never very successful or whatever else I was on, I seem to always be on Diclofenac, do you say Diclofenac as I used to know it as? And I was always on quite a high dose of slow-release (inaudible). But what I didn’t realize at the time was that that was only controlling my symptoms, it wasn’t controlling the disease progression. And that just never really occurred to me, particularly, and I felt, well if I’m on it anyway, why am I taking methotrexate, sulfasalazine and whatever else I was on? So, the treatment that I was on was has never been very successful at controlling the disease progression, and my way of coping was to take the anti-inflammatories and that. For me, sort of I felt that was the way to go, I now understand it probably wasn’t.

Clint – Well, so let me just check so sulfasalazine, plaquenil, methotrexate were all in the mix in your first probably decade, right? And taking tons of the non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs to mop up what the disease-modifying drugs were not really covering for you. Then biologic drugs came into the mix, what biologic drugs have you tried? I mentioned cimzia, and you’ve been on that since 2014. What did you try prior to that?

Esther – That’s been the only biologic treatment that I’ve tried that I’ve had, and actually, in 2014, when I was put on Cimzia, it was like flicking a switch. It just worked, almost overnight it, and probably be fair to say it is the only drug that I’ve ever been on that has had that impact. That I just knew it had worked, I was out of pain. I could climb the stairs and it was, I could barely believe the immediate effect. So, yeah, I was delighted yet at the same time, as with all the medications that I’ve been on, the minute I’m on it, I want to come off it because I don’t like being on. It’s just the thought of pumping this, whatever it is, all these chemicals into my body that I have no idea what else it’s doing, in terms of side effects unseen and seen, you know? So yeah, the world’s worst at being on medication,

Clint – But you’ve taken your Cimzia consistently and the way that’s been recommended for the last 11 years, correct?

Esther – Since 2014, seven years. It’s been a little bit of a rocky road I thought I’ve had. I had pneumonia in 2015, so I was off it for a while there. I’ve had some infections and I’ve had to come off it, but only under guidance, come off for a period of time, and then restart. But I’ve had no problems going on and off it. And the other interruption in the severe treatment was when I was diagnosed with Crohn’s disease, I was admitted to the hospital with a serious Crohn’s flare. They changed me to Humira in a bit of a hurry because that was their first line of defense against Crohn’s. I was given humira, but that did not control my RA so I switched back to cimzia.

Clint – Interesting, interesting. Yeah, wow, OK. These are really serious conditions, and for anyone who’s listening to this who may not appreciate the degree of difficulty of trying to get on top of rheumatoid arthritis and Crohn’s disease, I mean, you’d be hard pressed to turn around one of them, let alone both. But you have started the Paddison Program a few years ago, and I want you to talk about how that came about, how you learnt about it and what gave you the sort of motivation to make the changes, and then how that experience went.

Esther – Yeah. So the motivation, I mean, throughout the 30 plus years of having RA I’ve other diets and I have tried homeopathy and acupuncture. I’ve tried a number of things on and off with varying degrees of success and failure. And as you might appreciate hearing your story, you invest a lot, don’t you, in trying to find some alternative route other than medications. And so I feel exhausted from doing that, and I think I’ve reached a point where I had just given up and resigned myself to the fact that I was going to go on stronger and stronger medications and this was my lot in life. So the thing that motivated me was the Crohn’s flare and ending up in hospital where I was actually, I was told that I was going to have my whole bowel removed, my whole colon removed within the next day or two because I’d got a complete bowel obstruction. So to talk about this in the morning, and I was facing fairly emergency surgery. I would say they couldn’t leave me for long. This was a complete shock because although I knew I had colitis, I knew I had inflammation of the colon. I didn’t know it was Crohn’s disease. I didn’t know how serious it was. And being faced with that was horrific because I honestly thought, I’m not going to cope with this. I had the stoma nurse visit my hospital bedside the date the day before this proposed surgery, and she showed me how I would wake up with this stoma bag and how to clean it and how to keep it clean, and all that process. And I remember not sleeping that night thinking, I cannot believe I’m in this situation this is drastic. But at the same time, I was being given steroid intravenously steroids treatment. And the following day the surgeon came and said to me, Your surgery won’t take place today because the operating theatre is absolutely choppers, so it won’t be today. But we’ve got you carefully being monitored, we can’t leave you long. So it’ll be in the next day or two, you know, we’ll keep a close eye on you. And so there was another day of agony waiting for this proposed surgery. And after a couple of days, I started to improve, probably with the steroid, intravenous steroids were taking the inflammation down, possibly, and I started to feel a little better. I hadn’t eaten for ages. I was nil by mouth anyway, but my stomach was definitely improving. I won’t tell you how I knew this.

Clint – You go ahead, I want to know,

Esther – Okay, do you? Are you sure?

Clint – I do. I’ve got I got a 3-year-old, a 5-year-old and a 7 year old. All they do is talk about poo all day.

Esther – This is so embarrassing. Well, I hadn’t been to the toilet for ages, but I had that the one night I broke wind ever so slightly. But this was something I hadn’t done for a long time, and I mentioned this to the surgeon when he came to my bed and he said, Well, that’s really good news, that is a sign that the steroids might be taking the inflammation down because before that, nothing had passed through my, you know, through the colon at all. And so he said, we’ll leave it a day, you know, and they would just closely monitor the situation. And yeah, and that was apparently a good sign, Clint, because there was some sort of.

Clint – Fermentation going on.

Esther – The blockage was, yeah,

Clint – Yeah. Well, it could be a lot of things and I’m not the expert on this.

Esther – It was a good sign. And so I was left and this continued to improve. I mean, it took weeks before I was anywhere close to back to normal, but I didn’t have the surgery, that’s the bottom line. I did not have my colon removed and I have everything intact and I am absolutely, I mean, I can’t tell you overjoyed that that didn’t happen. But I came out of hospital probably about two weeks later with bags full of steroids and a reducing rate reduced reducing dosage that took place over I think it was about 10 weeks, something like that to gradually reduce the steroid medication. Then I was put on another medication that I cannot remember the name of. I can’t remember it was something like Muslimeen mean or something like that and I can’t remember. But they also they did the change to Humira and then back to Cimzia. But they did say that although the cimzia wasn’t licensed for the treatment of Crohn’s disease, they did feel that it would probably be having some positive impact on the inflammation in the colon. So they were happy for me to remain on that because it also was keeping my RA symptoms in control. So I went back onto Cimzia, reduced dose of steroids, but this was the motivation for me to once again go I have got to find out that you know something else. And I asked the surgeon actually, as I left the hospital, is there anything I can do for myself, you know, to help the situation with the Crohn’s disease? And he said to me, I’m afraid not. I’m afraid there is nothing you can do, except you really do need to be careful about your diet. It’s anything high fiber you need to avoid. So even if you’re eating, say, for example, you’re eating. I remember him saying to me, if you’re eating an orange. Remove all the peth, but even the skin in between, you know, that slight that really fine. What would you call it?

Clint – Do you know that that is actually really good to help create butyrate, which repairs the gut lining, which is the exact thing that you were trying to heal? And he’s telling you to remove the one thing that is the best thing for you, mind blowing.

Esther – Yes. So that’s the message I left the hospital with was low fiber, so be really careful with fruit and vegetables. And in fact, I came home and he said, Eat white rice, white crackers, white bread, don’t go for any whole meal, whole grain. And I’d be very careful with fruit and vegetables. So I actually came home and for a long time, I was very nervous about eating anything, to be honest, anything I was very nervous about. And in fact, whilst I was still in hospital, I was nil by mouth, for ages, for about 10 days. And then when I was allowed to actually eat, I was given ice cream and they’d let me have some ice cream and some cornflakes, and that was about it.

Clint – This is extraordinary.

Esther – And then I had one appointment with it because I wasn’t really given any dietary advice other than be very careful about the fruit and vegetables and fiber.

Clint – They were telling you the opposite thing of what your body needed.

Esther – I think so, now I know, but at the time I was just terrified. And so I ate for a long, long time. I ate white rice with some salmon and some carrots, very peeled and boiled to within an inch of their lives. And because that felt safe, I stuck with that for ages because I thought, I’m okay, I’m okay, nothing’s happening. And I was happy to just stick with that because it felt safe. But yeah, not the healthiest of diets at all. And. So, yeah,

Clint – What might have done because it’s an extreme elimination diet what you’ve just described, it’s not a healthy one, but I have heard worse. Like a carnivore diet is the worst kind of elimination diet where you’re only eating meat. It doesn’t get much worse than that, right? So, yeah, yours is actually a far superior elimination diet because at least it’s besides the salmon, which is, it was a little bit you’re only adding a little bit of that. You are having some white rice, you are having some carrots. It’s not by no means nutritionally complete, but it what it does do that does eliminate oils, does eliminate dairy, and it and for the most part, eliminates meat. You’ve got a little bit of salmon in there, but as I said, there are worse, there are worse and yeah, so so did you actually, yeah, see a little bit of stability on that?

Esther – Yes. I mean, this was completely self-imposed, I suppose, I’ve been given very little guidance, I was nervous, and this seemed to be OK. And so so I stuck with that for however long. But it was during this time that I started to sort of read and watch things on YouTube and actually, I have to be completely honest, I have done the Paddison Program sort of back to front in reverse and I can explain what my process was. So the first person that I discovered on YouTube was Doctor McDougall and the starch-based diet.

Clint – I muted myself, but you gave me away.

Esther – Sorry, I was waiting for the.

Clint – The silent sneeze hat guy. He’s some kind of magician. Do it again, the party trick.

Esther – So I discovered Dr. MacDougall, and I listen to others that I think are Dr. Klaper, and others. Because at the time, I sort of just listen to everything I could. I bought a book about the autoimmune fix by Tom O’Brien, and the common thread that I sort of learned through these initial findings was the I learned about intestinal permeability and the process of the leaky gut and the proteins entering the bloodstream that shouldn’t be there. Then the immune system firing up because I could never understand why is my immune system turning on my joints? Why is it now turning on my intestines and I could never understand why? And this to me, really helped to explain a process that sounded sensible, it sounded feasible. And the whole idea of animal protein entering the bloodstream that shouldn’t be there, the immune system correctly identifying it, that it shouldn’t be there and going into to deal with it. But the molecular mimicry argument as well with the joints and all of that made complete sense.

Esther – And so I immediately gave up all animal products. By this stage, this didn’t happen overnight. I was probably back on to a pretty rubbish diet, after the salmon and the rice and the carrots for however long it was. I was probably back to a normal, varied diet, and gradually, as things felt safe to consume in terms of it wasn’t triggering any more Crohn’s problems. I immediately gave up all animal products I cut out, I stopped eating meat immediately, that was not a problem at all, not difficult. Dairy took about a month, I suppose, because it was a little more complicated and I found it in all sorts of things that beyond just the milk and the obvious stuff. So but then so that was gone. So by about a month, all animal products produced was out of my diet, but I was at that time I was still eating things like pasta and red kidney beans. And because I thought, Oh, I’ve got to replace the protein. So red kidney beans, pinto beans, I’d never eaten so many beans.

Clint – Were you able to go from that little gas that you do in the hospital to a lot more gas at this point?

Esther – Let’s not talk about that, it’s best not talked about. But for about 4 months or so of this, I felt like my joints were actually getting worse, not better. I was eating pasta, tomatoes because I was making new things that, you know, with pasta dishes and tomatoes. But gradually I started to learn and I can’t tell you the timeline, but I would learn something new. Oh, maybe, oh yes, I remember something about tomatoes not being, you know, the nightshade family I’ve done this in the past. Cut out potatoes and tomatoes, so I took those out of the diet. So what I’ve basically done since is I’ve worked backwards and I and I took out all those beans as well because I think I heard something that they can be quite inflammatory.

Clint – Not necessarily, it depends. I mean, you know our program well, but for those people who don’t who are watching now, there’s a period of time in which you test them into your diet. But no, the beans, legumes, these are one of the top foods of the longest living people on Earth. So their healthy food that we need to get into when we can. Let me just hold right there, and so we are live streaming this to YouTube. If you are watching this on YouTube, we’re experimenting on this, we do have some people online. I can see now if you want to ask some questions, we can both answer them, Esther or I just post a question and I might be able to multitask here, possibly and see if I can see the questions come up and we can post them to Esther. So Esther you can continue from you’re eating the beans. You’ve got some other changes to your diet that’s more positive without the meat, without the dairy. But you’re saying that your symptoms are actually progressing.

Esther – Yes. So I’ve worked backwards, I was basically I was taking things out of my diet all the time at that point. So after the 4 months, I thought this is not improving. So I took out the tomatoes, I took out, potatoes I took out. Well, then at some point I came across your TED talk and the hour. Now here’s a guy who’s had RA this is more specifically me. Your message really resonated with me because and you were young and I thought I just felt, I could trust everything you said on your. And also you had been through such a lot of experimentation, so in essence, you’ve done the research, you’ve done all the testing and all the trialing on yourself and which of course, I had done, but with very limited results. Not to the extent you had and we were talking about this exactly the same condition. At this point, I thought, oh, I started to listen and I gradually learned new things, oil has got to come out of my diet. Ok.

Clint – Hallelujah.

Esther – Yeah. So, can you see what I mean about working the Paddison Program in reverse. So I have never done the two-day celery and cucumber.

Clint – Lucky you say everyone who has.

Esther – Yeah, and I haven’t done the 12-day reintroduction because I just haven’t worked at it from that angle. And I wish I had, I so wish I had because I think the results would have been probably much, much quicker. And B, the other thing that I that I’ve missed out on is recording all my progress, and I wish I’d done that because how lovely that must be for people who’ve done this the right way round to be able to have all those records to reflect on and to further motivate them to keep going. Because I mean I can see my progress, but I haven’t got it written out. This is why my details are so vague, it’s because it’s all happened in a back-to-front way, disorganized way, little bit by little bit. And so, yeah, I don’t have that lovely record of my progression towards health in the same sense that that people doing it the right way round would have, if that makes sense.

Clint – Yes, it’s definitely satisfying to see, for example, as C-reactive protein chart if we were to sort of completely nerd out and start charting our C-reactive protein, which I used to do all the time. However, look, the outcome is the same, all we’re really trying to do is to reduce inflammation, to feel better and to require as less outside intervention as possible, whether that be supplements, whether that be medications, whether that be alternative practitioners that have to do energy healing on us or interventions of any type alternative therapies. All these are to help correct to align the body back to the ideal health and a feeling of energy and well-being. And so all of these things, if we need less of them, that’s great. Why don’t you tell us now compared to where you were at your worst? I mean, give us the kind of before and after.

Esther – Yeah, so. I mean, 30 years of this, probably my worst, I’ve barely been able to walk without extreme pain. And the point where absolutely everything is, everything is painful, you know, picking up a pen is painful. Absolutely every everything is painful. And now I am. Honestly, I am. I’ve been able to space out my medication, so that was my next. Because, as you know, I don’t like taking medications. I think you’ve probably got that by now. So I started by spacing The cimzia from two weekly injections to 3 weeks. I thought, this is OK, and I stayed like that for a while. Then I went to 4 weeks, this is OK. My rheumatologist said, it’s pointless, you going any longer than 4 weeks, he said I would keep it at four weeks if I were you, because that’s controlling your symptoms. But I always felt that how will I know unless I try spacing it out beyond 4 weeks? How will I know whether or not I can go for any longer without it and cope? So I tried 5 weeks and I tried 6 weeks and this seemed to be OK as well. And this is this is this is where I am, I’ve been the longest I’ve been without an injection is 15 weeks and. But more commonly, for the last few injections that I’ve had, it’s been around about 11 or 12 weeks. But at that, I mean, I’m over the moon at that, so don’t get me wrong, but I’m going to say I am at that point, I feel like I need an injection ever so slightly. And you’ll know the feeling of anxiety as you get slight little, hmm just a little bit stiff. And those old pains just coming back a little. But Clint, the thing I’m not sure about is whether it is actually joint pain or whether it’s something else that I’m feeling. It doesn’t feel quite like joint pain that I know from the past. At the moment so my rheumatologist has actually said to me, just stop taking it now. Now, if you can go for 11 weeks, 12 weeks without it, you don’t need it. But he also said, I don’t know what will happen but try without it. And if you flare up, we can have you back, give you a nice steroid injection, calm everything down and get you back on it. So that’s the situation that I’m in.

Clint – Yeah. It’s predictable the commentary from the medical profession to solve the inflammation with a counterproductive gut drug, which is the steroid. And from our viewpoint, from the patient viewpoint where we’re all about gut health and overall health, that doesn’t sound too attractive if it were. It’s almost like a hinge rubbing together, Let’s get You back in here, and let’s throw that drugs at you there’s a medicine cabinet full of stuff that we can throw down into your body. I don’t know what I would do in your situation. Probably I would continue to do exactly what you’re doing. The medical community are very cautious to have outliers, right? Predictability is important and convention is very important. So you’re in an outlier situation and having a patient that isn’t in the real black and white portion of the rulebook doesn’t sit as comfortably as one that is. And a real comfort zone is oh patient inflammation boom big steroid injection into the body, right? This is convention stuff, right? It’s familiar, it’s reassuring to the medical practitioner. Your situation is just a little out there. And so, yeah, one feels more comfortable if they’re treating one that is predictable and like every other patient. So, yeah, look, but if I were you I would probably continue to do what you’re doing. And you know, we’re as we’re live streaming this right now, we’re in the middle of our rheumatoid solution summit, and I would watch all those presentations and join us on the monthly live calls that we do as part of rheumatoid solutions. And B, just take part in all of this information that’s now available, and just keep tweaking, tweaking, tweaking. If I was speaking as if I were you, I would keep tweaking, tweaking it and see if I could get it to sort of like you have done before. Like, did you say like beyond the 12, 13, 14? And look, it isn’t the way the drug was designed to be taken, but obviously it does something and offers you some relief every time you do it or you would just drop it. So if you’re not developing antibodies against the drug, which he can ask to be to have your blood tested forward to check. Check against antibodies and I don’t pretend to be any kind of medical expert, but I remember a lot of what gets said by the rheumatologists, right? Yeah. On our live calls, when we host them for the live calls to our members and what my rheumatologist says to me and we have these conversations and I understand that for example, my rheumatologist has some patients who were in your situation and he’s comfortable with it. So it’s not your average situation, but it’s not completely unheard of. There are no the rheumatologists around the world with patients like you right now because we all know more and people patients are acting in ways that help to help themselves without entirely dependent on entire medications to reduce the inflammation. Well done, Gene. You’ve done so well and talk about your Crohn’s. How’s that?

Esther – Yeah, I have absolutely no Crohn’s symptoms, and as I left the hospital, the surgeon said to me that I would have to have the surgery absolutely would have to have the surgery at some point. And he said it may be a year we might get a year out of you, possibly more, but you will have to have it, and it might be better to have it as an elective surgery rather than emergency surgery. You know, we prefer you to come off the steroids that they gave me as I left the hospital. So once you’ve come off, those will consider the surgery. And so in my head, I honestly thought perhaps 12 months within the next 12 months, I would have to have this surgery. But we are now 4 1/2 years and I have absolutely no symptoms. Which I have honestly, I’d had the symptoms for since about, yes, since about 2009, although it wasn’t diagnosed or later. And so, yeah, and I’m eating all this fiber and fruit and vegetables and you know, and it’s amazing. Honestly, I think it’s it’s remarkable that it’s it’s not just helping my joints, but it’s completely. Well, I hope it’s completely you can’t see inside you, can you? But they test for inflammation on an annual basis and there’s no sign of any inflammation, bowel inflammation at all. So, there we go, isn’t it incredible?

Clint – It’s just brilliant absolutely. It just goes to show that a high fiber, low-fat plant-based diet, it’s the approach that my friends over at high carb health who deal with ulcerative colitis, that’s their whole push. It’s the same diet that’s used by the mastering diabetes method, my friends, Cyrus and Robby over at Mastering Diabetes. It’s used by our program the Paddison Program, Rheumatoid Solutions for Rheumatoid Arthritis with insane, positive outcomes. You know it’s the chef A.J. Maximum Weight Loss Achieve Your Optimal Weight Program. It’s the Esselstyn Dean Ornish Heart Disease Program. And it’s going right back to the very start your Dr. McDougall as a general physician. It’s the life time approach that he’s put forward to his patients to deal with just about everything else that I didn’t mention in the last 60 seconds. Right? Yeah. It really is the human diet, and whether or not that appeals to everyone who get addicted to the fat-rich, sugar-rich, salt-rich diet, that’s irrelevant. The point is that it is, the human diet for optimal health.

Clint – This has been tremendous, I want to thank you for being brave and doing this live with me on YouTube we haven’t done this before. And if people like it, we’ll do it again. And I might schedule these at a certain time so people can watch them at a time that’s convenient. And I want to thank you for taking part in this conversation and helping people with rheumatoid arthritis, Crohn’s disease, colitis. These terribly chronic stroke like challenging conditions and just being an example of someone who has really turned around their significant odds, defied, defied, predicted colon removal. And even after 3 decades of rheumatoid arthritis, now spacing out your medications and getting to the point where you know your doctor is just saying, look, come off your biologic drug and we’ll see how it goes. It’s it’s amazing. So thank you very much.

Esther – Thank you very much, because obviously that all the information that you’ve provided has made such a difference. And yeah, incredible so I’m very grateful, I’m very grateful. And it’s just so nice to have somebody who understands and, has been there and yeah, so I’m very grateful.

Clint – Thank you.