We discuss in this interview:

• Taylor’s journey through variable pain levels
• How she was diagnosed with spondyloarthropathy despite a very healthy lifestyle
• The role very high stress levels can play as a trigger
• Different types of stress
• Stress management through therapy
• Body dysmorphia
• The importance of having the right perspective
• The role of spiritual practice in healing
• Dealing with dental work
• High intensity interval training

Clint – Thanks again for tuning in to this episode of the Rheumatoid Solutions podcast! We love sharing happy stories, positivity, and transformational methods to improve inflammatory arthritis. Today we’re going to hear from Taylor and she’s from the beautiful Vancouver, Canada. Taylor has made tremendous improvements with her rheumatoid arthritis. She’s going to say good day right now and tell us what that looks like for her.

Taylor – Hi, Clint! Thanks for having me on and it feels so special for me. I also feel like things have come full circle because, during the time when I was the sickest, had the most pain, I couldn’t stand and things like that. I would watch your podcast and it would kind of give me hope. I was always thinking that if it worked for all these people, it’s got to work for me eventually. Now I’m on the podcast and it feels really special. Thank you for having me on your podcast.

Taylor – I was diagnosed with rheumatoid arthritis in April of 2018, but the symptoms started probably about 6 months before that. It was a little bit tricky for me to finally get that diagnosis because I didn’t have the rheumatoid factor and things like that in my blood. But I was immediately put on Sulfasalazine, which worked really great. I got pretty close to remission after taking that for a few months. But then about another year after being diagnosed, it kind of came back again with a vengeance. I got super sick again, but this time in more joints than I had originally. Then I was put on methotrexate, which I took for another period. But luckily about 12 weeks ago, I stopped taking methotrexate so that I could get dental surgery. After recovering from the surgery, I just realized I had literally zero symptoms. It was the first time in the entire 3 1/2 years that I had nothing and I felt totally normal again. I talked to my doctor and we’d agree I’ll be off of the Sulfasalazine probably in September.

Clint – It is very positive-sounding, isn’t it? 12 weeks with no methotrexate, and that is no longer contributing to any of the symptom reduction that you’ve experienced. Also, that is out of your system. You went back through your journal in our little community or our support forum. Then, I saw that you had so many items listed as pain points. For example, TMJ, jaw, wrists, and ankles. Can you give us a quick sort of body scan of where you were affected?

Taylor – The very first time I got sick or when I was only taking Sulfasalazine and it was entirely on my feet. But it felt like in every joint in my foot and the ankles, and that was really tough. It is because I couldn’t really stand on my feet, which was really difficult. Then the second time when it came back, it was like basically everywhere. For example, hands, wrist, jaw, back, neck, shoulders, knees, feet, and elbow. I couldn’t straighten my elbow and also I had it in my left eye. With that in my eye, I had to take eye drops. I guess technically it’s not rheumatoid arthritis that I had. It is because I was diagnosed with ankylosing spondylitis. I mean functionally, it looks like the symptoms are pretty much exactly like rheumatoid, except sometimes my eye would get blurry.

Clint – Was the diagnosis uveitis on the eye?

Taylor – Yeah, it was uveitis.

Clint – It’s some serious stuff, right? What does your doctor diagnose you as? Do they say ankylosing spondylitis or rheumatoid?

Taylor – I think my official diagnosis is spondyloarthropathy, which is kind of like an umbrella term and it was narrowed down. It is because spondyloarthropathy includes either ankylosing spondylitis or psoriatic arthritis and he can’t really tell which of those two it is.

Clint – Good luck telling it right now, right? How are you right now? I mean, in all those joints, which ones still have the inflammation?

Taylor – None and absolutely nothing is inflamed in my joints. The only thing that left was a nodule on my finger. But it doesn’t hurt and it’s not inflamed anymore. It’s just kind of like a permanent little record of what I’ve been through.

Clint – Yeah, it is really sensational. Let’s talk about all of the triggers. Then, let’s talk about how you may have developed this. I know your story because we’ve communicated in the support forum. Can you share with others, how you actually started plant-based when this started? What do you think was the big trigger here?

Taylor – Yeah, so it was really interesting for me. Before I got sick, I was already a plant-based vegan and I was also already exercising 5 days a week doing hot yoga. I’ve always been really into fitness and health. When I got sick, I’m pretty sure that it had a lot to do with the amount of stress that I was under at the time. I was just poor at coping or like stress management, I guess you could say abilities. I got sick right after graduating from grad school. I was into a landscape architecture program. I think the entire field of architecture is kind of notorious for people like not sleeping and working crazy, and school is definitely like that. But it was about 6 months or so after I graduated, the first job that I had out of school was kind of a toxic workspace. Basically, it’s really demanding and my bosses were kind of angry type of people. I think, especially with myself, I did really well in school. It is because transitioning from being a student with good grades to kind of being someone in an office who literally knows nothing. I was like having to ask a lot of questions because I didn’t know how to do stuff and I got really scared a lot. Every time I had to ask a question, it would stress me because I’d be like, my boss is so busy and I’m going to ask him this dumb question. He’s going to think I’m an idiot and I carry that amount of stress with me for like 6 months. It was kind of like always being afraid of getting fired. It should come as no surprise but it was just too much pressure and stress on my shoulders. It did cause me to get sick. Another thing that I told you before, this kind of rheumatic arthritis does run in my family. But typically everyone else in my family, even going way back in the past, all of my family members are normal. They didn’t get it until they were in their 70s. But in my case, I was 26 and it was very strange.

Clint – Yeah, absolutely. It was 5 years earlier than I got it and I was considered young at 31 to get an autoimmune inflammatory disease. Now, you touched upon a couple of things that I want to talk about. The concept of stress and its relationship to disease activity or instigation. I read a great book called Thrive by Brendan Brazier. He’s Canadian as well and he is also a vegan athlete. It looks like you’re nodding, do you know him?

Taylor – I’ve heard of the book, but I haven’t read it.

Clint – Yeah, and he’s an ultra-marathoner. He is one of these crazy 100 mile kind of runners. Wherein, you’re doing the most insane kind of physically demanding sports. He talks about stress in a way that I really admired or learned from. He said that stress can impact our body and not just the way we think about it, which is via the mind and via our emotions. It can be also through interpersonal stress, which is what you had going on with your boss and probably other colleagues. You’re in this fight or flight mental state and you’re basically holding on to fear this entire time. Then you’re going to trigger something from your boss or get sacked and even worse, like be publicly humiliated in front of other colleagues that you’re stupid, right? You’re worried about these things that you’re holding that constantly and it’s very unnatural to have this. You wouldn’t have that kind of constant fear month after month if we didn’t live in a Western society, right? But he also talked about the physical stress that our body can be under. We can have physical stress from injuries and overtraining. Also, eating the wrong foods is a form of stress on our body. It is because the body has to negotiate these foods that aren’t natural, whether it be processed foods or foods that are excessively high in fat. The concept was stress really is one of the underlying drivers of all health problems in different formats and different modalities, like I’ve just explained from the book. It really validates the onset of your condition. We also recall a study that was done on students, who had their microbiome measured before their semester. Then their levels of healthy gut bacteria was only 30% level during the week of their exams compared to at the beginning. I just want to reassure you and our listeners that stress is damn right going to cause a lot of problems. It really does affect you, if we’re not really cautious of our ways of managing it.

Taylor – Yeah, totally. I absolutely agree with that.

Clint – How did you manage it and what did you do? How did you get out of this stressful scenario successfully without having any money and feeling like a failure?

Taylor – This is kind of funny to say, but I got fired from that job eventually. When I did get fired I was happy and I actually felt relieved. I was like, thank God it finally happened and I don’t have to be afraid of this anymore. It’s like the same thing when you start having symptoms and you’re like waiting to get diagnosed. It’s also like when you get the diagnosis and you’re like, finally now I can treat the issue now that I know what’s going on. Basically, I took a little bit of time off after that. I think I took 2 months where I didn’t work and I just did the Paddison Program. I then took it full on from phase one and up until the end. I felt that I was out of place where I could get another job. Another thing I did is I went to therapy, which was also really helpful. I’ve been talking with a friend of mine lately and we both think that therapy is very underrated. I also realized, while I was doing therapy, that I was also kind of struggling with a little bit of body dysmorphia at the time. My therapist really helped me kind of undo that, which I think it’s like another level of stress that was on there too.

Clint – I’ve never experienced that and I don’t know what that is? Can you tell me what body dysmorphia is?

Taylor – He told me it’s actually something that’s really common with people who have arthritis, but for a different reason. It’s basically when you perceive yourself or your body having something wrong with it. Like you think that you have some type of disfigurement or something like that, but it’s only it’s in your mind. My choice of going into therapy really helped me undo that, which was really good.

Clint – Let’s explore this a little further because we have another guest, who was talking about the benefits of therapy a few episodes ago. Can you talk about the ways in which you felt that the therapy helped?

Taylor – One thing that I like was when my therapist did a test on me. He then could do see if I actually had that and we went through the test. Then he was kind of able to explain to me objectively through the verbal kind of quiz that he gave me. In which, I had this kind of body dysmorphia thing. These things that I thought were wrong with me were just kind of in my head. I was just kind of being really hard on myself unnecessarily, so that was good. Then he also helped me figure out ways to deal with the stress in a more healthy way and I have some notes here. One thing that I was able to do through talking with him was, I stopped trying to think about the ways that my illness was really limiting me and how it was holding me back. Instead, I tried to kind of reframe it in my mind. Also instead, I thought about the perspective that it gave me and it sounds good. This is especially for people who are going through a really difficult time with their illness. I know it’s really hard to think about it this way because it is really limiting. But I would just try to focus on how it was helping me reframe the way I was looking at things. It also made me a more empathetic person. Another thing that he helped me do was rather than being afraid of failing all the time, I just tried to instead feel more confident in my abilities. I would remind myself of achievements that I had in my career, like awards that I had won. I would say, I’m not stupid and I’m good at my job because I won this award. It’s not that I’m stupid, but it’s that my boss needs to go to therapy.

Clint – Yeah, there are some great insights in there. One thing that I do because I’ve got limitations with my elbows, knees, and so on. If we stay on the train of discussion around how do we not feel. For example, we’re hopeless because we can’t run as fast or we can’t play basketball or whatever the thing might be. I hone into some skills that I think are relatively impressive. I then concentrate on those things that I can do. For me at the moment, I’m just a bit of on a roll with just doing pull-ups and chin-ups. I’m not exactly breaking records, but I’m competent and it’s developing more and more. I then focus my energy on that and I don’t look at people, who are sprinting past me while I’m walking on the path. I do not focus on I’m so upset that I can’t do that. I focus on the fact that I’m out there doing reasonable amounts of stuff, particularly on elbows that have taken a lot of damage. I’m out there cranking them out and I’m thinking, stick with that. It is because while I think of that, I think I’m progressing and I’m pleased with my abilities. I could relate to what you said in that in my life. It’s interesting, isn’t it? So much of this is in the mind and this is just a mental battle.

Taylor – I’ve read a couple of books that helped me. This book is good and it’s called, You Are the Placebo.

Clint – Yeah, I’ve heard this book.

Taylor – It’s really amazing when he really goes into how powerful the mind is. There is another one and I haven’t finished it. I think it’s called When the Body Says No and it’s another good one. Another aspect, that I could potentially talk about was my spirituality during my healing. I took the spiritual aspect of it really seriously too. I’ve got a spiritual teacher, who was so instrumental as well.

Clint – Please expand on that.

Yeah, I’d love to but it’s kind of difficult. It is because for some people spirituality is a very personal thing. But in my case, it was very instrumental for me. I think one of the main things that we worked on together was trying to see the suffering that I was in at the time. It just has been a small piece of the whole huge experience and that is like my experience of life kind of thing. Within the work that I did with him, we definitely believed in our talk about like reincarnation and things like that. It really helped me to think about how my illness was teaching me lessons like spiritual lessons. With that, I could potentially carry with me and even just within the story of my life or with the suffering. Also even when it was on or off, they were just phases. I was never constantly in that worst place of suffering for a long time. It is because there were always harder drugs that they could give me to knock me out of it type of thing. I just tried to think of them as like little chunks and time along with the whole thing. Also, how each chunk would make me stronger and it’s kind of cliche.

Clint – No, I’ll just comment on that as well. My wife Melissa has a spiritual teacher and his name is Sant Rajinder Singh. He is one of the Indian heritage, has a massive following and he teaches meditation. He talks about how we can really found all of our direction in life, guidance, and everything via meditation. It comes as no surprise that’s it’s going to help us, right? She also learns from his teachings about the concepts of reincarnation. Again, we won’t talk about personal, and we won’t push one way or the other. I’m not going to go into my beliefs about this. However, there’s a beauty in the concept that they are all lessons. With everything that we’re going through in our lessons. Also whether or not it’s one life or multiple, we can take those lessons and we can then make adjustments. We can evolve as a spirit and we can be more empathetic to other people, who are going through stuff. With that, it has been a huge development of mine because I used to be very the opposite of that. I used to be so unaware of life’s challenges until this one hit me like a ton of bricks. I had virtually everything going the way I wanted in my life and felt pretty much blessed in every way. Then this smashed that idealism that I had of my life. I literally had the mantra for years prior to rheumatoid that I was the luckiest person on Earth. I use to just totally just indulge in that thought and completely believed it. I can’t say for sure if I really believe that anymore. It fleetingly comes in and out of my thoughts as opposed to being really just a belief system that drove me. But these lessons make me much more humble, just like you’ve talked about, and also empathetic. Now, I can spot someone with a cane on the other side of a field of people playing soccer. I look at that person and I think about, how they are doing? Yeah, it’s like you’ve talked about.

Taylor – The spiritual practice also helped me let go of feelings. For example, wanting to blame the universe or whatever for doing this to me. Do you know what I mean? It helped me to let go of the blame game. I just kind of accept it and I was trying to accept that it was happening so that I could learn from it. With my practice, we also do lots of meditating. While we’re in a meditative state, we also ask for healing too and I think it really works.

Clint – How long and how often do you meditate?

Taylor – I meditate every day and I used to have a much better practice. I would then meditate for like 20 minutes a day. Right now it’s probably only like five minutes a day, but I still make time for it. One thing that I try to do is I choose a time every day to sit and do it, which I think also really helps me. I kind of feel like I cheat, but it’s not really cheating. I just do it before I go to bed and I would say, I’m really busy. I mean, there really is no excuse. If I really wanted to make 20 minutes a day, I could definitely do it. But lately, it’s just been like 5 minutes before I go to bed. I kind of just try to breathe, meditate and ask for healing. I also ask for healing for people in my life that I love and things like that as well. Hopefully, soon I can get back into my 20 minutes a day session because it’s really beneficial, especially for stress management.

Clint – Yeah, it’s funny you mention that 5 minutes before bed because that’s my bread and butter. I haven’t been doing it the last week or so. We’ve had some homeschooling and all stuff going on here in Australia with the virus. It’s just probably likewise around the world because of the pandemic. We had a period where we felt like it didn’t exist. Now it’s all having us and also this whole Delta variant vibe. I’ve been getting a bit late at night and I’ve been skipping it. But I do notice it when I don’t do it because it’s the most valuable 5 minutes of my day. I don’t know why sometimes I decide to skip it and I think that’s just the conscious brain making decisions. Also, the conscious brain is the one we’re trying to shut down so it doesn’t want to get shut down. I put earplugs in and I sit cross-legged against the back board of my bed. Then normally by about 4 1/2 minutes, I’m thinking I’m relaxed enough and now I feel like I can sleep. It’s amazing, isn’t it?

Taylor – I used to do it in the morning, which I think I feel like maybe societally. There’s like some kind of vibe that it’s healthier to do it in the morning, which it probably is. But I’m not a morning person at all. As I said, there was a point where I was waking up at 6 -00 am every day and this is actually when I was in the worst part of it. I would wake up at 6 -00 am, and I would do an ice bath for my hands and feet. Then I would meditate for 20 minutes and I would make the Paddison cucumber and celery juice. Then I would do some yoga and that would kind of get on with my regular day. Lately, it’s been like more sleeping until the absolute last minute that I can. I’ll try to get back into it as soon as possible. I was just really busy, the COVID, and some just regular work stuff.

Clint – We still have a couple of things that I want to go over. You had some dental work and I want to talk about that because people are often afraid about going to the dentist. It is because often they are associated with antibiotic use. Then, we have this known connection between antibiotic use and the microbiome impact, so I want to talk about that. Then I want to talk about your exercise, how you feel that it has helped to maintain your happiness, and also your health. Finally, I just want you to emphasize for us the most important fact is for you. A factor that kept and has helped you get to where you are now. Just tips and things that people can say, I need to do more of that or I should do that because I’ve never done that before. I know we’ve covered some and meditation was the example. Everyone should do that, including me, spiritual side of things. I believe we all should have a constant connection with the higher power. We haven’t gone into the diet, but I know that you are on a plant-based diet, and let’s get to those in a moment. But first, let’s start with the dental work, tell us what you had done, how significant that was, and just how that went?

Taylor – It was pretty significant. I had a crossbite and my bite was kind of like a bulldog bite. It actually looks like canine teeth on the bottom and it would actually come in front of my front teeth. My teeth would bite like this but my bottom canine came forward a little bit and that was actually the heart of what gave me the body dysmorphia type of thing. I was really really self-conscious about it. Then whenever I spoke to other people about it they would be like, you’re beautiful and you don’t need to spend all that money on braces or just accepted. I think it really beat me up for a long time about not being able to just accept the way I was. But then eventually I was like, just do what makes me happy. Then I went to the orthodontist, they gave me braces, and then they had to do a little bit of surgery to bring these teeth forward more. After the surgery and braces, I have now a perfect bite. I did have to take antibiotics after the surgery. I’m sorry to say but I was a little bit nervous about it. After I finished the antibiotics, I ate a ton of sauerkraut, tempeh, and kombucha. It was mostly sauerkraut and I was eating sauerkraut every day. I seem to have gotten away with it because I didn’t have a relapse of symptoms luckily.

Clint – It’s fantastic! In fact, you look for positives in everything. Then maybe it’s encouraged you to necessarily eat lots of fermented foods, which has actually been helpful.

Taylor – Yeah, totally.

Clint – There were no consequences of the dental work and with that short-term antibiotic use. I want to say for those people worried about their dental work and antibiotic use, another member of our forum and she just had a chest infection. It’s not dental work, but it’s antibiotics. She’s taken antibiotics and her chest infections are gone. She also had no consequences as well with her rheumatoid arthritis. Now, remember that we’re in a community where we eat a plant-strong diet and it then supports the microbiome. I know that you know this, but for our broader audience. Antibiotic interventions for infections or infection prevention, just like in your case, can trigger more symptoms if you’ve got rheumatoid arthritis, and we need to be careful. But when we’re eating a diet that constantly feeds our healthy bacteria or we eat foods that they need to eat, we then have an extra level of protection. It’s good to hear that you didn’t have any issues with the antibiotics (inaudible). On the other hand, we had a member who’s just been through a chest infection a few weeks ago. Your teeth look beautiful and that’s great.

Taylor – Thank you, I do have braces right now but they’re bound perfectly together now. I feel so much relief and it’s so crazy. I’m 30, I’ve never had a fight like this before and it just feels so good.

Clint – It must feel good! These things get in your head and they become obsessions. If we can afford it and we have the luxury of being able to get the procedure done, then wonderful, and why not? Tell us the exercise that you went through. You’ve mentioned that you actually won some awards, did you? I’m sorry, have you ever hit a high level of physical? I want to say sport like snowboarding or skiing, you’re into all that?

Taylor – Yeah, I do tons of sports but I’ve never won an award. I’ve won awards for my work as a landscape architect. I do a lot of sports and I actually recently just got into HIIT, which is high intensity interval training. I really loved HIIT or high intensity interval training. I think actually for me, I really don’t know because there were so many things that I did to help myself while I was healing. From the day that I got rheumatoid in 2017 up until I guess like 12 weeks ago, I could do almost well but not always and there were periods. Sometimes I could do almost all of the poses that I did the other day and there are other days that I couldn’t. But I could never sit on my feet and I don’t know how to illustrate this stuff. I had to always say cross-legged because when I sat on my feet, it hurt my feet so much. We have to sit like that every single time I do a yoga class and I was always really aware of it. Recently, I left the yoga studio that I was practicing at and I switched to HIIT studio that also had yoga. It was really great because there was a really big variety. For example, on day 1 I would be doing Barre, which is like ballet-style fitness. Then the next I would be doing boxing and some days we would just be doing kind of more classic HIIT, which is like jumping jacks and push-ups, We also do like Russian twists, (inaudible) plank, and all these kind of things. Then other days I would be doing yoga. I found that after doing this like the diversity of this kind of strength training, cardio and flexibility. I regained my ability to sit on my feet, which was so exciting and I can do that again now. But other than that, I also do snowboard and I love riding my bike. Actually, riding my bike really saved me when I was at the worst part of my arthritis. As I was saying before, I really couldn’t even stand. But I can still ride a bike because my feet didn’t have to bear any weight while I was riding my bike. With that, I rode bike everywhere. I also tried hiking and surfing, but I’m not very good with all the stuff.

Clint – Right, but the constant theme is that you’re very active and you’re always pushing yourself. You are always looking for ways to become fitter, stronger, faster and so forth. I could not want more to share that message more with our audience is just go and do it. If your body can get to this, then see if it can get a fraction more without causing any negative consequences. I like how you’ve noticed that the variation of exercise has helped with the flexibility in your legs. I’ve experienced examples of this before as well. Let’s say a yoga sequence over and over again. The muscles learn exactly how to do those and not any more sometimes. It’s then all about strength through range. I learned this from a guy who himself, The Knees Over Toes Guy on YouTube. He has his own website and he has a solid business. Also, Gabe, who’s our cirrhotic arthritis spokesperson inside our forum. Do you know him? He has been several times in our podcast and he introduced me to The Knees Over Toes Guy. He counterintuitively suggests that we should try and load our legs with our knees forward above the toes, which every physical therapist says never do. But anyway, what we’re trying to do conceptually here is to build strength through a full range of motion that a joint can go through. Rather than having a lot of strength just in a narrow portion of movement. If we hold a squat at a 90-degree angle, our legs are strong to that point but may it be very weak below that point. Then, flexibility and strength are very intricately connected. If you are doing your HIIT and you’re building strength with a deeper range of motion through some exercises. It might not even be squats or lunges, or it might be other things. Then when you go to sit down on your heels, the body has strength through the extra range. Then, it’s happy to relax and let that down to get that full range, that’s my thoughts around it.

Taylor – That’s interesting.

Clint – I may not be right, but it tends to work that way with what I’ve observed. The last thing that we want to talk about is your tips. Let’s create a situation where you’ve just met someone on an airplane, they’re leaving and you’ll never see them again. What advice would you give them before they disappear out of your life forever?

Taylor – For me, diet and exercise are really important. But in my case, it felt like it was almost entirely a mental game. I would say being able to think about the bigger picture and try to get your head out of the suffering. Also, just kind of take a step back and try to accept things as they are a little bit, rather than to be really resistant. For me, the spiritual practice was extremely important. I’ve actually recommended a number of my friends who are suffering from various things to look into this thing that I did, which was called Erfan Halgheh. There are lots of resources online if you want to look at them and that really helped me spiritually to ground myself. Also, just accept things as they were and accept that it won’t be like this way forever. Also, things are moving to help me take a bigger perspective. Just learn healthy ways of managing stress. For me, a big thing for that was to stop worrying about whether I was good enough. Also, just accept that I wouldn’t have an opportunity to even try if I didn’t have a chance. Just believe in yourself more and I think it’s really good. Also, just believe that you can defeat the illness even if it takes a really long time. Another thing I wanted to add is when I was doing the diet and the exercise on the Paddison Program, my progress was so slow and it was glacial. After weeks went by, and I couldn’t feel the difference at all. But I just stayed and I just kept believing that it was possible. I kept watching your program, telling myself it is possible and it will happen for me. Asking the universe for healing and doing everything that I can to make it happen. You should be believing that you are a strong and capable person. If people are telling me otherwise, it is just because they don’t even know me.

Clint – Oh, most definitely! I’m sure that others might be thinking the same thing I am. We look at you and we see someone who’s young, looks very healthy, attractive, and physically active. You did achieve a lot with your sports and you’ve won awards for your work. On the outside, we’ve got someone who has no reason to feel anything other than confidence. It just goes to show that we are really just delicate little souls. We all need that support, love, encouragement. Also, we all need to be built up by other people around us to be able to realize how incredibly amazing we really are. We easily get dragged down and that’s something we all need to realize. We’re all magnificent and we need to act out of magnificence. You’ve spoken to some people who are highly qualified in this and not just me. I’m just another person just having a chat with you. But as a friend to a friend, you don’t need to worry about any of those things anymore.

Taylor – I know it can be difficult, but just be proud of how far you’ve come and how much you have survived. I used to think about that a lot when my boss was really mean to me and stuff like that. I would say, he doesn’t know what it’s like to not be able to stand without pain and still show up for work every day or still not miss the deadline. I would just feel proud of myself in those moments and try to not feel sorry for myself. I think that’s maybe what I would say to the person leaving.

Clint – Well, that person would be very lucky to have that information. You said at the start of this conversation that how this is a full circle. Also, how you used to watch these episodes and hopefully you still will. It is because there’s always something new to learn. Then now you’re able to come in and share information that can help others. I think the people watching this or listening to this are going to get so much out of our conversation and what you’ve shared. Now there is even more reason to say, there is a purpose to all this, there is value in suffering, there is no losing, and there are only lessons. You’ve given me a gift today and I’ve learned so much from you. I also feel touched from the information that you’ve shared. Well done and thank you so much. I’m really grateful and it’s just been a wonderful chat.

Taylor – Thanks a lot, Clint! Thank you for everything that you’ve done and I don’t think I could have done it without you.